In Case You MIssed It
Uncle Andrew
Here is a great take on the Prop 8 victory down in sunny Califor-ni-yay:
10 Responses to “In Case You MIssed It”
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November 14th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
Silly. Every gay man has the same rights I do to marry… a woman. Not wanting to is something else. 😀
What I’m interested in is to see if the judges overturn the will of the people a second time. Regardless of what the law is, if our courts can arbitrarily overturn the will of the people we are in for some serious problems. Should be interesting.
November 15th, 2008 at 11:10 am
Your snarky comment aside, you bring up the basic point here, namely the will of the people versus the letter of the law. I’m not comfortable with the idea of the judiciary callously overriding the other branches of government either, but you have to admit that there are situations where such action is absolutely necessary. Very few people would protest the rejection of an initiative to return to the enslavement of black people, for instance, or the retraction of the right of women to vote. If the California Supreme Court finds a strong and salient argument against the gay marriage ban, then it is not only permitted but in fact obliged to overturn Prop 8.
Fortunately for folks who are against gay marriage, Obama has already opined that this is a state’s rights issue and that he will not seek federal legislation either way. Kind of a chickenshit maneuver, but I can certainly understand why he did it.
I would really like to know how you feel about the idea of gay marriage, and what you feel would be the effect on society were it to be permitted.
November 15th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
Let me say that I’ve been having some very entertaining conversations on this topic with my daughter who is at San Francisco State. It’s weird discussing the various arguments at the latest no on prop 8 rally.
First, I believe homosexuality is wrong, (that doesn’t make me homophobic because I’m not afraid of it. We really need a better word for it, something like racist, or sexist, but homoist just doesn’t roll off the tongue 😉 ). But I also believe adultery is wrong, so I’m probably in a very small group indeed.
I also believe that marriage is more than a legal contract and if i had to sum it up I would point you here.
When the Mormon’s rights to marry were removed by the government, (see end of this article) they obeyed the law. Now the law says there will be no gay marriage, and I expect our gay friends to uphold the law. Will either or both be repealed in the future? Sadly, I think so.
So what does that mean for the future of America? In the short term, nothing. I see same sex marriage as yet another indicator of the path we are on. We’ve built up such a tolerance to all things awful, immoral, or horrific that nothing is shocking anymore. Murder, graphic mutilation, child molestation, and adultery are now considered prime time entertainment. “Why not” seems to be the cry of the day. What usually happens when a society get corrupt enough is they are wiped off the map, whether by fire from heaven or by less dramatic means.
But there’s no need to fear, Obama will change all that. 😉 Here’s to hoping.
November 16th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
Wow. Thank you for taking the time to put all of that in writing; I appreciate it!
Barring some other insight to the contrary, I think the core difference between people like yourself and myself is the knowledge of being guided by an external power. I can’t look at two men or two women taking a vow to each other and see anything that makes me cringe. It neither affects me or my marriage, nor does it do anything I can see to affect the society as a whole, with the possible exception of helping to take more unwanted children out of the foster care system and into stable, loving homes. And while I am sure that you could assemble a host of arguments in support of the societal dissolution that comes with such behavior, I think you would have to admit that a massive chunk of the reason you feel this way is because your Creator, who gave you life and everything you see around you, says it’s wrong. That’s a good reason to think that way….so long as you have had that epiphany. Those of us who have not have to settle for going on our own intuition and experience. I’m not being snide here: if I heard the Lord telling me that this was an abomination I would have little choice but to follow His directive. I just don’t, so I don’t.
Your comment about homosexuality and adultery takes me onto an interesting tangent. Would you consider both practices to be equally wrong? I mean, adultery is listed in the Ten Commandments, whereas most of the stuff about homosexuality is contained in Leviticus, sandwiched in amongst such abominations as eating things that creep on their bellies or water-dwelling creatures without fins and scales. Lord knows (heh heh) that I don’t intend to get into a battle of scripture with you; I would lose. But given their place in the structure of the Old and New Testaments, I think it would be safe to say that adultery is at least as bad as homosexuality. The now-obvious question I am posing is: would the California Supreme Court be right in overturning a successful proposition criminalizing adultery?
As you, I would expect homosexual couples to abide by the law of the land just like everyone else….while working their asses off to change it. But that brings up another interesting contrast to me. Your church is particularly strong on its support of personal choice and “render unto Caesar”; one of the things that always impressed me. Spending millions of dollars in a campaign to fight back against the ruling of Caesar’s court seems out of place to an outsider like myself. If homosexual couples must adhere to the law post-Prop 8, what does that say about the people who sought to counter the Supreme Court ruling with Prop 8?
If gay marriage is just another indicator of the downhill slide our country is on, if we’re truly approaching the End Times, there’s really nothing to be done about it; it’s as inevitable as the tides. It might be nice in the interim to let gay and lesbian couples attain full access to insurance, custody rights and power of attorney for a while before the moon becomes as blood. 😉
November 19th, 2008 at 10:30 am
I find it interesting that God would put adultery right after murder in the list of things not to do. And isn’t it interesting that homosexuality is listed right next to incest and bestiality in the things not to do. If homosexuality is ok in the minds of modern, enlightened, folk, shouldn’t the others be too? It’s not like nobody does it, right? 😉
As for upholding the law, we are also big on government by the people. It is our responsibility to make sure we have good laws. There are many stories in the Book of Mormon about what happens when the government becomes corrupt, (including an interesting bit about the good laws being diddled by corrupt judges ). I could try to paraphrase but I wouldn’t do it justice, so here:
Mosiah 29
November 19th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
Hm, yes, very interesting indeed. I also would point out that murder and adultery are two lower down on the list than laboring on the Sabbath. So following that line of thought, given the sort of rampant equivocation we harbor here in America today, working on the Sabbath is the same as killing someone is the same as homosexuality. Which means, if you mow the lawn this Sunday, I get to fly down there and stick my tongue down your throat. 😛
November 20th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
Ah, would that you had been born female Roo… 😆 😀
November 20th, 2008 at 3:10 pm
Okay, you win; now I’m creeped out…. 😯
December 20th, 2008 at 1:11 am
Ahhh… Goob & Roo. Missed listening to you two, though Goob, darling, I don’t think there’s much you and I would agree on these days.
Hope all is well with both of you.
Steph
December 21st, 2008 at 3:53 pm
Steph, holy crap, hiya! Good to know you’re still out there in the Interwebs. 🙂